| Author | Message | | outsider | | Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
| I assume that use of nukes requires an order from the Commander in Chief -- at least that's what I've been led to believe. I have seen no direct evidence that nukes were launched; but it's not beyond belief. It's likely that nukes were at-the-ready in case the Soviets decided it was time to nuke Israel, on behalf of their Arab allies
I re-post my previous info re nukes - Purely circumstantial, that LBJ used the fake 'Tonkin' incident to massively increase US involvement in Vietnam, and that he uses the 'Tonkin' scenario when telling Evron they would use the same method in the Middle East; that nukes were launched to bomb Cairo in 'retaliation' for the attack on the 'Liberty' (before you come in with howls of protest that this is unverified, try rereding 'Operation Cynide' and the testimonies of: Mike Ratigan, cntre-deck catapult operator on the 'Saratoga'; Harry Stathos, a correspondent for United Press International (UPI) on the 'America' at time, who saw that the nuclear-armed planes had been launched, and was told they had gone to bomb Cairo; Charles 'Chuck' Rowley, 'Liberty' survivor talked to airman on board 'America' who told him he had flown one of the planes launched that day, was carrying nuclear weapons and was ordered to target Cairo; Joe Meadors, one of Rowley's shipmates, told by ground crew in Crete they had refuelled a US fighter that had landed with a nuclear bomb on board, which had been targetted on Cairo but recalled. It couldn't land on carrier with a nuke aboard, and off-loaded it in Crete; David Nes, US charge d'affaires in Cairo Embassy, received 'Flash' message US was about to bomb Cairo due to 'Liberty' attack......); and that Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of JCS when 'Operation Northwoods' (a planned 'False Flag' op aimed at invading Cuba) was put to McNamara and JFK, was Supreme Commander Europe, when 'messages' to Liberty to pull out were 'misdirected'...
And I'll add another I forgot to put in previously - CT survivor Moe Shafer told Peter Hounam that after he had been airlifted by helicopter for treatment on the flagship 'Davis', Admiral Martin had personally told him that not only had four conventionally-armed planes been launched to 'Liberty's' defense, four nuclear-armed planes had been sent to bomb Cairo ('Operation Cyanide', page 221).
Martin denied McGonagle's request for destroyer escort when he (Martin) was fully aware that Liberty was virtually defenseless and would be operating very near a war zone. Additionally, Martin told McGonagle that fighter aircraft could come to Liberty's defense within about 15 minutes of being notified of a need.
If a full-blown Court of Inquiry would have been conducted, most likely Martin would have been called to testify about the rational for his decision and his wrongful statement about being able to quickly defend Liberty.
Thanks for clarification; but if, as I and others posit, the attack was pre-planned by LBJ and other US and Israeli insiders, Martin's refusal to provide a destroyer escort would not have been a mistake, but necessary for the plan to work. Israeli planes and MTB's could hardly attack the 'Liberty' if a US destroyer was standing shotgun.
I'm not implying anything. All I'm saying is that I've never read or heard the story about Golden's purported acts, as told by Hounam, from Golden himself or any other source. And that it seems unlike Golden. This doesn't mean it's not possible; only that it's strange.
Peter Hounam is (or was; I don't know if he is still working) a respected journalist; he was the 'Sunday Times' chief investigative reporter, when he broke the Mordechai Vanunu story of Israel's nuclear arsenal; he is not likely to miss-report George Golden's testimony, if for no other reason than that George is still alive to pull him up on it. If you doubt this story, why don't you try to verify it from George Golden yourself? You seem to have very good contacts with the survivors.
I am not a hostile, and I do not post for the sake of it; I really believe that the 'Liberty' attack was a classic 'False Flag' op, to give a 'casus belli' for US involvement. History is replete with such treacherous and treasonous operations, not just by the US, but their record would take some beating. | |  | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
| Launching aircraft carrying nuclear bombs is not the same as issuing an order to drop nuclear bombs. When the Liberty was attacked, the most likely attackers would have been the Egyptians or the Soviets; i.e., the assumption would have been that the Israeli had no reason to attack the ship. If the Soviets were bold enough to attack Liberty, then perhaps they were bold enough to nuke Israel. Whatever the case, it would have been tactically prudent to have nukes in the air for possible use -- given the grievous possibilities.
I would like to interview Golden, but I was told by other survivors that his memory isn't what it used to be, and that he no longer attends reunions.
Peter Hounam may be a respected journalist, but IMHO his book is not well-researched or well-edited. To me, it appears that he heard a lot of ideas and hearsay from various folks, built a theory, and then attempted to support his theory with hearsay, circumstantial evidence, and unverifiable statements from anonymous people. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | CT survivor Moe Shafer told Peter Hounam that after he had been airlifted by helicopter for treatment on the flagship 'Davis', Admiral Martin had personally told him that not only had four conventionally-armed planes been launched to 'Liberty's' defense, four nuclear-armed planes had been sent to bomb Cairo ('Operation Cyanide', page 221). | At that time, Shafer was a CT3 (a lowly E4 paygrade enlisted person). I find it very difficult to believe that Admiral Martin would have gone out of his way to tell Shafer much of anything.
By the way, the Sixth Fleet flagship was the crusier USS Little Rock, not the destroyer USS Davis that was sent ahead to find and meet Liberty before the fleet arrived. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
| I noticed in the book that PH claims "Little Rock" was the codename for the flagship USS Davis.
This is pure nonsense. Clearly, PH had no clue that the cruiser USS Little Rock was the Sixth Fleet flagship, and that USS Davis was a Sixth Fleet destroyer.
It's misinformation like this -- found throughout the book -- that tells me the quality of PH's research is poor. | | | | Cowboy | | Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
| | Ken, while we do not always entirely agree when it comes to 'analysis', I want to once again compliment you on the way you distinguish between facts, rumors and assumptions, regardless of the reason behind the assumptions. Analysis, after all, does include one's decisions re credibility of memory of detail, importance of variations in detail of recollection, and perceptions of people involved in the most stressful of conditions. | | | | outsider | | Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
| @Ken Halliwell
Launching aircraft carrying nuclear bombs is not the same as issuing an order to drop nuclear bombs. When the Liberty was attacked, the most likely attackers would have been the Egyptians or the Soviets; i.e., the assumption would have been that the Israeli had no reason to attack the ship. If the Soviets were bold enough to attack Liberty, then perhaps they were bold enough to nuke Israel. Whatever the case, it would have been tactically prudent to have nukes in the air for possible use -- given the grievous possibilities.
To re-iterate: Harry Stathos, a correspondent for United Press International (UPI) on the 'America' at time, who saw that the nuclear-armed planes had been launched, and was told they had gone to bomb Cairo; Charles 'Chuck' Rowley, 'Liberty' survivor talked to airman on board 'America' who told him he had flown one of the planes launched that day, was carrying nuclear weapons and was ordered to target Cairo; Joe Meadors, one of Rowley's shipmates, told by ground crew in Crete they had refuelled a US fighter that had landed with a nuclear bomb on board, which had been targetted on Cairo but recalled. It couldn't land on carrier with a nuke aboard, and off-loaded it in Crete; David Nes, US charge d'affaires in Cairo Embassy, received 'Flash' message US was about to bomb Cairo due to 'Liberty' attack...
You seem to dismiss these testimonies as 'hearsay'; what do you want, a signed affidavit from LBJ admitting the attack was planned with Israel to enable US to enter the war?
Peter Hounam may be a respected journalist, but IMHO his book is not well-researched or well-edited. To me, it appears that he heard a lot of ideas and hearsay from various folks, built a theory, and then attempted to support his theory with hearsay, circumstantial evidence, and unverifiable statements from anonymous people.
I believe his excellently researched book (he travelled to US, Europe, Moscow and Israel, interviewing many top players); many of his informants are named; some wished to remain anonymous (hardly surprising - you must be aware that the survivors were terrified by the draconian threats made to them, and only started to talk after Jim Ennes broke the spell and wrote his book; the fear of speaking out was well-founded, and given the sensitivity and efforts made by both the USG and GOI to hush things up, anyone who had 'inside info' or info embarassing to the US or Israel would be wise to keep their identities secret); - and incidentally, I believe Jim Ennes not only co-operated wholeheartedly with Peter Hounam, but proof-read his manuscript.
Quote:
CT survivor Moe Shafer told Peter Hounam that after he had been airlifted by helicopter for treatment on the flagship 'Davis', Admiral Martin had personally told him that not only had four conventionally-armed planes been launched to 'Liberty's' defense, four nuclear-armed planes had been sent to bomb Cairo ('Operation Cyanide', page 221).
At that time, Shafer was a CT3 (a lowly E4 paygrade enlisted person). I find it very difficult to believe that Admiral Martin would have gone out of his way to tell Shafer much of anything.
You may find it very difficult to believe, but the fact of the matter is Moe Shafer said that's what happened - I'd sooner believe a survivor than a pundit.
By the way, the Sixth Fleet flagship was the crusier USS Little Rock, not the destroyer USS Davis that was sent ahead to find and meet Liberty before the fleet arrived.
I noticed in the book that PH claims "Little Rock" was the codename for the flagship USS Davis.
This is pure nonsense. Clearly, PH had no clue that the cruiser USS Little Rock was the Sixth Fleet flagship, and that USS Davis was a Sixth Fleet destroyer.
It's misinformation like this -- found throughout the book -- that tells me the quality of PH's research is poor.
You're absolutely correct - the cruiser 'Little Rock' was the Admiiral's flagship - but 'pure nonsense'? 'misinformation like this'? ('found throughout the book' - like where????) - it's seems you have some kind of chip on your shoulder vis-a-vis Peter Hounam. Wouldn't it seem more reasonable to point the error out, guessing it is a slip, probably by Peter Hounam, rather than poisonous invective like 'pure nonsense' and 'misinformation'? | | | | outsider | | Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: |
| | While I was busy typing out my last reply, it seems you got some fan mail!!! I'll forgo comment... | | | | Jefferson Davis | | Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
| | Cowboy in the USS Liberty forum is like a turd in the punch bowl. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | ...but 'pure nonsense'? 'misinformation like this'? ('found throughout the book' - like where????)... | Read the book critically and carefully, and do fact-checking. You'll find the misinformation.
Too bad the now defunct Court of Inquiry Forum (http://usslibertyinquiry.com) is no longer available. On that forum there were several discussion threads that cited many of the errors in the book -- including ones found by me. Additionally, several people interviewed by PH (Gerald Surette and James Nanjo) had comments on the forum that confirmed they were interviewed by PH, but that PH inferred intent and added erroneous details that exceeded anything they said.
I've read many books about the USS Liberty attack; they all contain erroneous or misconstrued information to some extent. So far, the only author I've found who has made an earnest effort to correct factual misstatements, via errata and addendums pages on his website and in subsequent printing of his book, is Jim Ennes. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | I believe Jim Ennes not only co-operated wholeheartedly with Peter Hounam, but proof-read his manuscript. | You believe... Why don't you know for certain? It's easy to discover. Simply send a message to Jim (jim@ennes.com) that asks him to confirm or deny your stated belief. Do fact-checking instead of relying on beliefs and completely trusting the word of author's who don't do their homework. | | | | | ©2002-2009 WarWithoutEnd.co.uk |
