| Author | Message | | Jefferson Davis | | Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
| Israel didn't Torpedo the Research department now?
Funny how in your's and Cristol's mindset that the people that were there are suspect.
Those who were not are correct. What a bizaaro world you two live in.
Keep Apologizing. | |  | | Cowboy | | Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
| Your statement remains unsubstantiated, and other than personal attack, US Navy Petty Officer Nowicki remains unrefuted...
Nowicki's letter to the Wall Street Journal
Letter from Marvin E. Nowicki, Ph.D., published in The Wall Street Journal, Wednesday, May 16, 2001, page A-23:
Tragic "Gross Error" In a 1967 Attack
In regard to Timothy Naftali's review of James Bamford's book "Body of Secrets" (Leisure & Arts, May 9): Mr. Naftali doesn't quite have it right concerning the book portion dealing with the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty in 1967. I know because I am the person to whom Mr. Natfali [sic] refers as the "chief Hebrew-language analyst" aboard the U.S. Navy (not Air Force) EC121 aircraft. He says that I recall one of my teammates telling me of hearing references to "a U.S. flag" from Israeli pilots.
For the record, we (my teammate and I) both heard and recorded the references to the U.S. flag made by the pilots and captains of the motor torpedo boats. My personal recollection remains after 34 years that the aircraft and MTBs prosecuted the Liberty until their operators had an opportunity to get close-in and see the flag, hence the references to the flag.
My position, which is opposite of Mr. Bamford's, is that the attack, though terrible and tragic especially to the crew members and their families on that ill-fated day in June 1967, was a gross error. How can I prove it? I can't unless the transcripts/tapes are found and released to the public. I last saw them in a desk drawer at NSA in the late 1970s before I left the service.
MARVIN E. NOWICKI, PH.D.
Ashley, Ill. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | Did the Liberty crew listen to the Israeli radio transmissions and understand Hebrew? | There was at least one person (name undisclosed) previously trained in Hebrew (Special Arabic) assigned TAD to the ship, and apparently at least one person aboard (Allen Blue) was privately studying the Hebrew language.
I knew several CTIs during my time in the Navy; they all had an interest in studying languages beyond their speciality language(s) -- especially languages related to their speciality language. Based on this, and considering there were Arabic language specialists on board, I believe it's reasonable to believe there were people adequately skilled in Hebrew language, on board Liberty, to interpret simple conversations between recon pilots and their ground controller.
For reference see: http://usslibertyinquiry.googlepages.com/essay18
Harahefet sh'eli mele'ah betzlofahim | | | | Cowboy | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | There was at least one person (name undisclosed) previously trained in Hebrew (Special Arabic) assigned TAD to the ship, and apparently at least one person aboard (Allen Blue) was privately studying the Hebrew language. |
Gee, could you get any more vague?
| Quote: | | Based on this, and considering there were Arabic language specialists on board, I believe it's reasonable to believe there were people adequately skilled in Hebrew language, on board Liberty, to interpret simple conversations between recon pilots and their ground controller. |
I believe it os reasonable to believe that your belief comes up well short of substantiation of anything.
People on board have said otherwise. Have you read the NSA interviews? | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | Quote: | | There was at least one person (name undisclosed) previously trained in Hebrew (Special Arabic) assigned TAD to the ship, and apparently at least one person aboard (Allen Blue) was privately studying the Hebrew language. |
Gee, could you get any more vague? | I see Hickman, in his interview, named the TAD fellow. He was CTIC Baker (CTI1 at the time of his assignment). This is funny, because NSA redacted his name in another document. So much for keeping his name secret.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Based on this, and considering there were Arabic language specialists on board, I believe it's reasonable to believe there were people adequately skilled in Hebrew language, on board Liberty, to interpret simple conversations between recon pilots and their ground controller. |
I believe it os reasonable to believe that your belief comes up well short of substantiation of anything.
People on board have said otherwise. Have you read the NSA interviews? | As my essay explains, there was only one military trained Hebrew linguist aboard USS Liberty, but he was not assigned in that capacity. His primary language was Spanish, but he was mistaken as an Arabic language specialist and temporarily assigned to Liberty. As such, he would have had little to do while on Liberty -- other than brush-up on his Hebrew and attempt to make sense out Hebrew communications between the recon planes and ground control. Additionally, folks with non-military training or experience in Hebrew would not be included or considered as known Hebrew linguists. Nonetheless, I suspect it does not take much knowledge of Hebrew to determine when folks are saying the word "American" or their equivalent of the word.
Since Baker's name is not on the casualty list, perhaps he's still alive and in good working order. If so, somebody ought to interview him to record and publish his side of story. That ought to help make matters less vague. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | NSA redacted his name in another document. So much for keeping his name secret. | Correction. His name was not redacted, it simply was not stated. | | | | Cowboy | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | As my essay explains, there was only one military trained Hebrew linguist aboard USS Liberty, but he was not assigned in that capacity. His primary language was Spanish, but he was mistaken as an Arabic language specialist and temporarily assigned to Liberty. As such, he would have had little to do while on Liberty -- other than brush-up on his Hebrew and attempt to make sense out Hebrew communications between the recon planes and ground control. Additionally, folks with non-military training or experience in Hebrew would not be included or considered as known Hebrew linguists. Nonetheless, I suspect it does not take much knowledge of Hebrew to determine when folks are saying the word "American" or their equivalent of the word. |
Being aboard does not put them in a position that they were doing translations.
And again I note your use of "suspect". | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | Being aboard does not put them in a position that they were doing translations.
And again I note your use of "suspect". | Agreed. He may have been assigned to deck division and put in charge of the head cleaning crew. But since he had been trained in Hebrew, and the ship was near a war between Hebrew and Arabic speaking people, it's more likely than not that he was employed to perform in some fashion as a CTI, and not a BM.
Yes, I use words like "suspect" and "appears" when I don't know something for certain. Glad you noticed. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
| | The "he" mentioned in previous post being Baker... | | | | | ©2002-2009 WarWithoutEnd.co.uk |
