| Author | Message | | Cowboy | | Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
| 
Fokke gives us more of his fiction.
always amusing | |  | | DanielDives | | Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
| You must have ruptured face muscles by now or at least I hope you have.
The heoric men want a day in an open court. You don't want them there. | | | | outsider | | Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
| Peter Hounam's 'Operation Cyanide' (on which the BBC programme 'Dead in the Water' was based) gives a very thorough and well-researched motive for the attack - as a 'False-Flag Op' to 'justify' US entering the war, and taking over the Middle East and it's oil.
And Moise Dayan openly states (shown in the video 'Loss of Liberty') that the Golan Heights were attacked because Israeli farmers wanted the fertile land; nothing to do with strategic defense, just good old greed. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | | | outsider | | Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
| @ Ken Halliwell:
'Fifteen minutes after the DTG of the last message, the USS Liberty was attacked.'
The inference appearing to be the 'Liberty' was attacked to stop reports of Israel's offensive against Syria.
Rather locking the stable door after the horse had bolted? And wouldn't the GOI have been fully aware the US had other sources of intelligence in the area, including aerial intelligence assets?
Would Israel risk attacking a US ship, simply to close one avenue of intelligence? And the unmarked planes, equipped with non-standard heat-seeking missiles would appear to show prior planning.
Also, the murderous attack, treasonous USG response, and tete-a-tete between LBJ and Evron (see my post, 'LBJ and the Deputy Israeli Ambassador', where LBJ tells Evron that the two of them would get the US Congress 'to pass a new Tonkin resolution...', indicate planning going well beyond 15 minutes.
And a reading of 'Operation Cyanide' shows LBJ personally ordered the 'Liberty' to the area (through the Joint Chiefs, rather than the normal naval chain of command); as all are agreed he was a staunch friend of Israel, why would he have done this, or why would his Israeli friends not have dissuaded him, if it was likely to cause an embarassment to Israel?
Given declassified documents now show 'Turner Joy' and 'Maddox' were not attacked in the gulf of Tonkin (the claim of this attack was used by 'straight-shooting' Texan to massively escalate the war, leading to over 50,000 US deaths over the ensuing years), does this not clearly indicate LBJ was planning, in conjunction with Evron, a 'hoax' attack (in this case real, but with a 'False Flag' actual attack), to justify US intervention? And if this collusion had occured, then it would, of course, explain USG's scandalous subsequent silencing of survivors, and refusal to properly investigate the attack.
The 'USS Liberty' was sent by LBJ to the arae, to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to 'justify' nuking Egypt and taking control of the whole Middle-East. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | The inference appearing to be the 'Liberty' was attacked to stop reports of Israel's offensive against Syria. | Perhaps -- who knows?
| Quote: | | Rather locking the stable door after the horse had bolted? And wouldn't the GOI have been fully aware the US had other sources of intelligence in the area, including aerial intelligence assets? | Very likely, yes. | Quote: | | Would Israel risk attacking a US ship, simply to close one avenue of intelligence? | Not only would it close one avenue of intelligence collection, it would send a strong "Don't tread on me." message. | Quote: | | And the unmarked planes, equipped with non-standard heat-seeking missiles would appear to show prior planning. | What evidence exists that the planes were unmarked and heat-seeking missiles were used? This is purely myth and hearsay. | Quote: | | Also, the murderous attack, treasonous USG response, and tete-a-tete between LBJ and Evron (see my post, 'LBJ and the Deputy Israeli Ambassador', where LBJ tells Evron that the two of them would get the US Congress 'to pass a new Tonkin resolution...', indicate planning going well beyond 15 minutes. | Perhaps. But it may have served only to plant an idea in Evron's head -- an idea that the IDF acted on. | Quote: | | And a reading of 'Operation Cyanide' shows LBJ personally ordered the 'Liberty' to the area (through the Joint Chiefs, rather than the normal naval chain of command) | The book makes claims based on vague references and unnamed sources, and contains many factual errors. Not exactly a reliable secordary source. | Quote: | | as all are agreed he was a staunch friend of Israel, why would he have done this, or why would his Israeli friends not have dissuaded him, if it was likely to cause an embarassment to Israel? | LBJ may have inadvertently planted an idea in Evron's head, but I've seen no evidence that directly links LBJ to a covert plan to attack USS Liberty. | Quote: | | Given declassified documents now show 'Turner Joy' and 'Maddox' were not attacked in the gulf of Tonkin (the claim of this attack was used by 'straight-shooting' Texan to massively escalate the war, leading to over 50,000 US deaths over the ensuing years), does this not clearly indicate LBJ was planning, in conjunction with Evron, a 'hoax' attack (in this case real, but with a 'False Flag' actual attack), to justify US intervention? | Without doubt, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the USS Liberty incident can be circumstantially linked, but it's purely circumstantial. | Quote: | | And if this collusion had occured, then it would, of course, explain USG's scandalous subsequent silencing of survivors, and refusal to properly investigate the attack. | Agreed. But there are other reasonable explanations -- mostly involving attempts to cover-up NSA, DoD and Navy high-command weaknesses and incompetence. | Quote: | | The 'USS Liberty' was sent by LBJ to the arae, to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to 'justify' nuking Egypt and taking control of the whole Middle-East. | An interesting theory -- it has help Hounam sell a few books... | | | | outsider | | Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
| Thank you, Ken, for your disparaging remarks on 'Operation Cyanide'. Due to my poor memory for precise data, I had to reread it (for the second time; I had already read it twice) - ihus the reason for the delay in my response - in order to respond to your reply: (by the way, I suggest you reread it yourself, and also anyone else interested in the 'Liberty' to read or reread it):
Quote:
Would Israel risk attacking a US ship, simply to close one avenue of intelligence?
Not only would it close one avenue of intelligence collection, it would send a strong "Don't tread on me." message.
And USG would respond to such a 'don't tread on me' message with threatening survivors, and mightily re-arming Israel? Duh?
Quote:
And the unmarked planes, equipped with non-standard heat-seeking missiles would appear to show prior planning.
[/b]
What evidence exists that the planes were unmarked and heat-seeking missiles were used? This is purely myth and hearsay.[/b]
This 'myth and hearsay' is the testimony of survivors, quoted in both Jim Enness' and Peter Hounam's books. And how, other than heat-seeking missiles, would one account for all the transformers feeding the aerials being knocked out in first strike, except the one that was switched off and so not generating heat? I suggest you ask David Lewis about this.
Quote:
And a reading of 'Operation Cyanide' shows LBJ personally ordered the 'Liberty' to the area (through the Joint Chiefs, rather than the normal naval chain of command)
[/b]The book makes claims based on vague references and unnamed sources, and contains many factual errors. Not exactly a reliable secordary source.[/b]
Unnamed sources?? Peter Hounam writes in his book: 'Some people may say that too much of what has been written here is conspiracy theory, but conspiracies can turn out to be true. Almost all the witnesses in this book have been named and can be called to account, and what others have revealed anonymously can be substantiated, often from tape-recordings. Nobody whose information has been given weight had an obvious motive for inventing what they revealed, and their accounts were largely consistent with those of others'.
Frank Raven, Chief of NSA's 'G' Group at Fort Meade, said orders for the 'Liberty' to move to Med from Abidjan came from the JCS, not the NSA. Unusually, the Agency had been bypassed in the decision-making process and the Joint Chiefs were directing the mission themselves.
Vague references??
Quote:
as all are agreed he was a staunch friend of Israel, why would he have done this, or why would his Israeli friends not have dissuaded him, if it was likely to cause an embarassment to Israel?
LBJ may have inadvertently planted an idea in Evron's head, but I've seen no evidence that directly links LBJ to a covert plan to attack USS Liberty.
Seen no evidence linking LBJ to covert plan to attack Liberty?
George Golden told Peter Hounam he had been told when ship reached Malta that attack was planned, the ship should have sunk, that the Israeli's orders were to sink the ship and kill everyone on it, and that LBJ and McNamara knew; he also remebered a secret message from Fort Meade to the ship that LBJ and McNamara were not interested in hearing that the Liberty was being shot up. Of course, George Golden and whoever told him may have been lying, but I don't think so...do you?
This is of course made more believable by their recall orders to the rescue planes, and other reactions.
Quote:
Given declassified documents now show 'Turner Joy' and 'Maddox' were not attacked in the gulf of Tonkin (the claim of this attack was used by 'straight-shooting' Texan to massively escalate the war, leading to over 50,000 US deaths over the ensuing years), does this not clearly indicate LBJ was planning, in conjunction with Evron, a 'hoax' attack (in this case real, but with a 'False Flag' actual attack), to justify US intervention?
Without doubt, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the USS Liberty incident can be circumstantially linked, but it's purely circumstantial.
Purely circumstantial, that LBJ used the fake 'Tonkin' incident to massively increase US involvement in Vietnam, and that he uses the 'Tonkin' scenario when telling Evron they would use the same method in the Middle East; that nukes were launched to bomb Cairo in 'retaliation' for the attack on the 'Liberty' (before you come in with howls of protest that this is unverified, try rereding 'Operation Cynide' and the testimonies of: Mike Ratigan, cntre-deck catapult operator on the 'Saratoga'; Harry Stathos, a correspondent for United Press International (UPI) on the 'America' at time, who saw that the nuclear-armed planes had been launched, and was told they had gone to bomb Cairo; Charles 'Chuck' Rowley, 'Liberty' survivor talked to airman on board 'America' who told him he had flown one of the planes launched that day, was carrying nuclear weapons and was ordered to target Cairo; Joe Meadors, one of Rowley's shipmates, told by ground crew in Crete they had refuelled a US fighter that had landed with a nuclear bomb on board, which had been targetted on Cairo but recalled. It couldn't land on carrier with a nuke aboard, and off-loaded it in Crete; David Nes, US charge d'affaires in Cairo Embassy, received 'Flash' message US was about to bomb Cairo due to 'Liberty' attack......); and that Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of JCS when 'Operation Northwoods' (a planned 'False Flag' op aimed at invading Cuba) was put to McNamara and JFK, was Supreme Commander Europe, when 'messages' to Liberty to pull out were 'misdirected'...
Quote:
The 'USS Liberty' was sent by LBJ to the area, to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to 'justify' nuking Egypt and taking control of the whole Middle-East.
An interesting theory -- it has help Hounam sell a few books...
I think my reply above shows this is a bit more than an 'interesting theory', and if it helps Peter sell more books (I'm not his cousin, and I don't have shares in his book either, before you ask), then I believe he richly deserves the sales; but borrow the book, get it from a library, and read it, not to enrich Peter Hounam, but to understand the 'Liberty' attack in a much more balanced and overall picture. | | | | Cowboy | | Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | The inference appearing to be the 'Liberty' was attacked to stop reports of Israel's offensive against Syria. |
"Inference"?
Indications are that Israel wasn't keeping its intentions secret from the US.
| Quote: | | And the unmarked planes, equipped with non-standard heat-seeking missiles would appear to show prior planning. |
At least one Liberty crewmember is quoted as having seen Israeli markings, the MTBs flew Israeli flags, and steel bombs rather than napalm and small rockets would have sunk the Liberty in minutes.
| Quote: | | The 'USS Liberty' was sent by LBJ to the arae, to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to 'justify' nuking Egypt and taking control of the whole Middle-East. |
So Israel sent marked planes (per a Liberty crewmember) that were easily identified as the French type Israel purchased from France, and MTBs flying Israeli flags.
And did not use steel bombs that would have readily sunk the Liberty. | | | | Jefferson Davis | | Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
| For the love of God, please shut the hell up Cowboy. You're an insufferable lying USS Liberty apologist, a disloyal American Israeli Firster and an agent for AIPAC. Nothing you say or have ever said is legitimate.
Keep pretending. | | | | Ken Halliwell | | Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | Would Israel risk attacking a US ship, simply to close one avenue of intelligence? |
Not only would it close one avenue of intelligence collection, it would send a strong "Don't tread on me." message. |
And USG would respond to such a 'don't tread on me' message with threatening survivors, and mightily re-arming Israel? Duh? | Given the geopolitical situation of the day (i.e. Cold War and Vietnam War), the need to cover-up gross weakness in US military command-and-control systems, and protect at least one high-commander who made a very bad decision (i.e., Admiral Martin), the USG response makes sense; albeit, not good sense in hindsight.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | And the unmarked planes, equipped with non-standard heat-seeking missiles would appear to show prior planning. |
What evidence exists that the planes were unmarked and heat-seeking missiles were used? This is purely myth and hearsay. |
This 'myth and hearsay' is the testimony of survivors, quoted in both Jim Enness' and Peter Hounam's books. And how, other than heat-seeking missiles, would one account for all the transformers feeding the aerials being knocked out in first strike, except the one that was switched off and so not generating heat? I suggest you ask David Lewis about this. | I have discussed this with Dave Lewis. He agrees that his statements about the use of heat seeking missiles was pure speculation.
Besides, the impedance matching networks below the HF transmitting antennas (three 30' vertical whip antennas aft the ship's superstructure) would have not generated much heat -- assuming they were operating properly. The purpose of such devices is to ensure as much energy as possible is transferred to an antenna and not reflected back to the transmitter through the signal feedline. These type of networks (consisting of capacitors and coils) are not loss-free, but when well-designed and properly turned, they are typically efficient and convert very little signal power into heat.
The hot sun beating down on the dark gray-painted steel decks would have generated much more heat than an impedance matching network, and the hot gases from the ship's stack would have produced a very intense infrared heat signature -- as well as the sun's infrared reflection off the water. In other words, if heat seeking missiles were used, they would have either headed straight for the top of the stack or the sun's infrared reflection off the water.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | And a reading of 'Operation Cyanide' shows LBJ personally ordered the 'Liberty' to the area (through the Joint Chiefs, rather than the normal naval chain of command) |
The book makes claims based on vague references and unnamed sources, and contains many factual errors. Not exactly a reliable secordary source. |
Unnamed sources?? Peter Hounam writes in his book: 'Some people may say that too much of what has been written here is conspiracy theory, but conspiracies can turn out to be true. Almost all the witnesses in this book have been named and can be called to account, and what others have revealed anonymously can be substantiated, often from tape-recordings. Nobody whose information has been given weight had an obvious motive for inventing what they revealed, and their accounts were largely consistent with those of others'.
Frank Raven, Chief of NSA's 'G' Group at Fort Meade, said orders for the 'Liberty' to move to Med from Abidjan came from the JCS, not the NSA. Unusually, the Agency had been bypassed in the decision-making process and the Joint Chiefs were directing the mission themselves.
Vague references?? | I never said Hounam never named his sources; but the use of anonymous sources is not lacking in his book, nor has he ever made public anything that substantiates the claims made by his anonymous sources.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | as all are agreed he was a staunch friend of Israel, why would he have done this, or why would his Israeli friends not have dissuaded him, if it was likely to cause an embarassment to Israel? |
LBJ may have inadvertently planted an idea in Evron's head, but I've seen no evidence that directly links LBJ to a covert plan to attack USS Liberty. |
Seen no evidence linking LBJ to covert plan to attack Liberty?
George Golden told Peter Hounam he had been told when ship reached Malta that attack was planned, the ship should have sunk, that the Israeli's orders were to sink the ship and kill everyone on it, and that LBJ and McNamara knew; he also remebered a secret message from Fort Meade to the ship that LBJ and McNamara were not interested in hearing that the Liberty was being shot up. Of course, George Golden and whoever told him may have been lying, but I don't think so...do you?
This is of course made more believable by their recall orders to the rescue planes, and other reactions. | Golden was the ship's Engineering Officer; i.e., the guy in charge of people who work in the engine room and other mechanical-oriented areas of the ship. If Golden told Hounam what is claimed above, then why has he never mentioned it elsewhere or in his many filmed interviews? And who exactly told Golden all of this Top Secret information -- another anonymous source?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | Given declassified documents now show 'Turner Joy' and 'Maddox' were not attacked in the gulf of Tonkin (the claim of this attack was used by 'straight-shooting' Texan to massively escalate the war, leading to over 50,000 US deaths over the ensuing years), does this not clearly indicate LBJ was planning, in conjunction with Evron, a 'hoax' attack (in this case real, but with a 'False Flag' actual attack), to justify US intervention? |
Without doubt, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the USS Liberty incident can be circumstantially linked, but it's purely circumstantial. |
Purely circumstantial, that LBJ used the fake 'Tonkin' incident to massively increase US involvement in Vietnam, and that he uses the 'Tonkin' scenario when telling Evron they would use the same method in the Middle East; that nukes were launched to bomb Cairo in 'retaliation' for the attack on the 'Liberty' (before you come in with howls of protest that this is unverified, try rereding 'Operation Cynide' and the testimonies of: Mike Ratigan, cntre-deck catapult operator on the 'Saratoga'; Harry Stathos, a correspondent for United Press International (UPI) on the 'America' at time, who saw that the nuclear-armed planes had been launched, and was told they had gone to bomb Cairo; Charles 'Chuck' Rowley, 'Liberty' survivor talked to airman on board 'America' who told him he had flown one of the planes launched that day, was carrying nuclear weapons and was ordered to target Cairo; Joe Meadors, one of Rowley's shipmates, told by ground crew in Crete they had refuelled a US fighter that had landed with a nuclear bomb on board, which had been targetted on Cairo but recalled. It couldn't land on carrier with a nuke aboard, and off-loaded it in Crete; David Nes, US charge d'affaires in Cairo Embassy, received 'Flash' message US was about to bomb Cairo due to 'Liberty' attack......); and that Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of JCS when 'Operation Northwoods' (a planned 'False Flag' op aimed at invading Cuba) was put to McNamara and JFK, was Supreme Commander Europe, when 'messages' to Liberty to pull out were 'misdirected'... | As I said, and as you well-illustrated, at best it can be linked circumstantially; i.e., no direct evidence has yet come forth.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | The 'USS Liberty' was sent by LBJ to the area, to be the 'sacrificial lamb' to 'justify' nuking Egypt and taking control of the whole Middle-East. |
An interesting theory -- it has help Hounam sell a few books... |
I think my reply above shows this is a bit more than an 'interesting theory', and if it helps Peter sell more books (I'm not his cousin, and I don't have shares in his book either, before you ask), then I believe he richly deserves the sales; but borrow the book, get it from a library, and read it, not to enrich Peter Hounam, but to understand the 'Liberty' attack in a much more balanced and overall picture. | I've read it. I did not find the "evidence" he presented as compelling, as related in discussion above. | | | | | ©2002-2009 WarWithoutEnd.co.uk |
