| Author | Message | | Alpha | | Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:08 am Post subject: Late Edition: Wolf Blitzer Transcript |
| Subj: Late Edition: Wolf Blitzer Transcript
Date: 7/13/03 3:21:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time
LATE EDITION will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
This past week, the U.S. government declassified secrets about a long-time
naval controversy, a 1967 attack by Israeli forces on the USS Liberty.
CNN's David Ensor got a look at the material and tells us what he found.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By the time
the Israeli air force and navy finished their attack on the USS Liberty in
1967, 34 Americans were dead, 171 injured, and the ship ready for the scrap
heap.
The tapes in Hebrew of Israeli pilots and ground control and English
transcripts now being made public by the U.S. National Security Agency shed
new light on one of the most controversial mysteries in U.S. Navy history:
Why did the Israelis attack an American surveillance ship that was
monitoring communications in the Six Day War?
On the tape, recorded by a nearby American surveillance aircraft, you hear
the Israeli ground controller talking to rescue helicopter pilots sent in
after the initial Israeli attack.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For your info, it is apparently an
Arab ship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Roger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It is an Egyptian supply ship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Roger.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ENSOR: Miami judge, Jay Cristol, who pried the tapes out of the NSA, says
they show the attack was a tragic accident in time of war, that the
Israelis mistook the ship for an Egyptian one.
JAY CRISTOL, AUTHOR: I don't think there's any question that anyone who
reads these tapes would be absolutely convinced that there was the fog of
war out there.
ENSOR: Later on the tape, the Israelis sound confused and concerned. Ground
control orders the chopper pilots to look for survivors and check their
nationality.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If they speak Arabic, Egyptians,
you're taking them to al-Arish (ph). If they speak English, non-Egyptians,
you're taking them to Lod (ph). Is that clear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Roger.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JAMES BAMFORD, AUTHOR: Here the transcripts are saying, well, you know,
there may be people speaking English on this ship. Why would you say that
if it's an Egyptian ship carrying horses?
ENSOR: To James Bamford, author of "A History of the NSA," the tapes
suggest the Israelis may have deliberately attacked the U.S. spy ship,
perhaps fearing, for some reason still not known, that it was spying on them.
On the tape, after the rescue helicopter pilot tells ground control he see
an American flag on the ship, he gets an order in return.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They request that you make another
pass and check once again whether it is really an American flag.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ENSOR: The comment suggests the Israelis were surprised at word of a U.S.
flag. But it also runs counter to what Israeli fighter pilots and torpedo
boat crews have always insisted, that they could not see an American flag.
BAMFORD: Clearly, the flag was there. Because the intercepts show that the
helicopter pilots saw it immediately before they ever even got up to the ship.
ENSOR: That flag now hangs in the U.S. Cryptology Museum in Fort Meade,
Maryland, adjacent to NSA headquarters, which released the tapes and
transcripts.
CRISTOL: I think that this is probably the most important link in the
evidence that ought to bring closure to this matter.
ENSOR: Several surviving members of the Liberty crew argue that, far from
putting the matter to rest, the tapes only underline the continuing need
for a full public U.S. investigation. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A simple
investigation. That's all they have to do. Find out what happened, if
anybody did anything wrong, punish them.
ENSOR: In a letter to Cristol, the NSA said, contrary to rumors, there was
no U.S. submarine in the area watching, and the Liberty itself got no
recordings that are relevant. So this latest edition to the public record
may be the last.
Israeli embassy spokesman Marc Regev (ph) said the tapes are, quote,
"further evidence that the Liberty incident was a terrible and tragic case
of mistaken identity."
David Ensor, CNN Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And joining us now are the two authors featured in that report. In
Miami is Jay Cristol, the author of the book, "The Liberty Incident." Here
in Washington, James Bamford. He's the author of two books on the
supersecret National Security Agency, "Body of Secrets" and "The Puzzle
Palace."
Gentlemen, welcome to LATE EDITION.
James Bamford, let me begin with you. You heard Jay Cristol in that report
say this ends it once and for all. It was the fog of war. The Israelis made
an honest mistake.
BAMFORD: Well, it certainly doesn't end it. The only thing I think that
will end it if the U.S. government for the first time conducts a real
investigation into what really happened.
The people who actually saw this report long ago are the director of
central intelligence and the director of the National Security Agency. And
both of them are convinced this was deliberate.
BLITZER: Those names are, the specific people you are talking about?
BAMFORD: Yes, Richard Helms was director of the CIA at the time. And he
just says in his book that just came out a few months ago that the CIA's
board finding was that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew
exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. And the director of
NSA, General Marshall Carter, said there was no other answer than this was
deliberate. And that coincides with what most of -- virtually all the crew,
the captain of the ship and most of the intelligence community says.
BLITZER: Judge Cristol, what do you say about that?
CRISTOL: Well, I think that Mr. Bamford is giving you hearsay. There have
been 10 official investigations, five of them by Congress. They all came to
the same conclusion that it was a tragic case of mistaken identity. Most of
those investigations can be seen in their original form of the reports on
my Web site, thelibertyincident.com. As to the CIA and Mr. Bamford's
comments about what Mr. Helms may have written in a book 30 years later,
the official position of the CIA is that it was not made as malice against
the United States and was a mistake.
The National Security Agency, this week, on Monday, declassified page 64 of
its 1981 report. That's also on the NSA Web site and my Web site. And they
made a startling statement -- or I should say they made public a startling
statement. That statement is that they ruled out any theory that the attack
on the Liberty was made by the Israelis with knowledge that it was a U.S. ship.
BLITZER: All right, let me put that up on the screen, Mr. Bamford. In 1981,
U.S. cryptologic history report that was declassified only in recent days
says this: "While these reports revealed some confusion on the parts of the
pilots," the Israeli pilots, "concerning the nationality of the ship, they
tended to rule out any thesis that the Israel navy and air force
deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American."
BAMFORD: Well, unlike what Judge Cristol has to say, there was no
investigation of this incident. Investigations are the kind that take place
after the attack on the USS Cole off Yemen and the attack on the U.S.
embassies in East Africa where FBI agents went there, conducted
investigations, interviewed people, looked at documents. Not one
investigator has ever, in over 35 years, gone to Israel and asked one
question or looked at one document.
BLITZER: All right, let me ask Judge Cristol to respond.
Is that true?
CRISTOL: No, that's not true. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
sent people to Israel. But the original report, which is on the Web site,
the U.S. Navy court of inquiry has published 727 or 728 pages, 150-some
pages of testimony of crew members and other people that were involved.
Mr. Bamford's suggestion that there never was a real investigation didn't
seem to -- I should say, seemed to satisfy eight U.S. presidents who have
all concurred with the position that the incident was a tragic mistake.
And as recently as October of last year, President George Bush issued a
White House letter saying there is no reason for any further investigation.
And prior to that, President Bush's father's White House and President
Clinton's White House each sent me letters on White House stationary
confirming that they believe the attack a tragic mistake and no need for a
further investigation. They're on my Web site.
BLITZER: All right, let me bring back Mr. Bamford.
Mr. Bamford, if you listen to the Israeli pilots in the declassified
audiotapes that were released by the NSA this week, they do suggest that
they thought they were going after an Egyptian vessel. BAMFORD: Well, they
weren't the -- the helicopter pilots weren't the people that shot at it. It
was the fighter pilots and the members of the torpedo boats that fired five
torpedoes at the ship. Those are the people that need to be questioned, not
the helicopter pilots. They came up after the incident.
And the helicopter pilots said -- one of the first things they said was,
"There's the American flag. We see the American flag." If they saw the
American flag, then why didn't the torpedo boat sailors and also the pilots
on the Israeli fighter jets?
And in comment to Mr. Cristol's allegations, there has never been an
investigation of this. There never has. And the reason is because the
Israeli lobby, which echoes basically what Judge Cristol says, has put
enormous pressure on the government not to look into this.
BLITZER: Well, what about the issue of the flag, Judge Cristol? If the
pilots saw the -- helicopter pilots saw the flag, why not the torpedo ships
and the fighter jets?
CRISTOL: I've covered that rather extensively in, I believe it's Chapter 7
of my book on friendly fire. And there's a substantial difference between a
hovering helicopter a few feet away from a ship and an attacking jet moving
close to 600 miles an hour or a torpedo boat more than a mile away when the
ship was covered in smoke.
But as to Mr. Bamford's comment about the Israeli fighter pilots and
torpedo boats, I have published in my book the Israeli air force tapes,
which were released first to Thames Television and later to me, which
dovetail exactly with the NSA tapes which were released this week.
BLITZER: What about that?
BAMFORD: Well, you know, the person who knew more about this than anybody
else was the deputy director of the National Security Agency, Dr. Louis
Tordella (ph), who is basically a legend at NSA. He read the Israeli
explanation of this. He read every single document, he heard every one of
these tapes, he read every single report that's ever come out on this. And
his -- and this is included in the documents that were released -- his
comment was, this is a nice whitewash, a nice whitewash.
That was the comment of the person who knew most about this than anybody else.
BLITZER: You want to respond, Judge Cristol?
CRISTOL: Yes, sir, that's in the NSA 1981 report. And what Mr. Tordella
(ph) was commenting upon was the fact that the Israelis, in their
investigation before the examining judge, were considering court-martialing
a certain Commander Luntz (ph) who had removed the Liberty wedge from the
combat display table in Haifa. And he was made a party to the investigation.
They ultimately decided that what he had done in the stress of the combat
situation, and under the facts, did not justify his court- martial and
decided not to court-martial him. Just like just a few weeks ago, we
decided not to court-martial the pilots that killed our six Canadian friends.
And that's the exact comment that Mr. Tordella (ph) was making. Read it.
It's on the web -- NSA site and my site.
BAMFORD: A nice whitewash. It says just what it says. It was a nice
whitewash. And that was a fact. Israel never punished one person from this
entire incident.
BLITZER: I guess Judge Cristol and others make the point that the Hebrew
language linguists who work for the NSA who were listening in on the
conversations of the Israeli pilots who were engaged in the operation, they
came away, at least according to Judge Cristol, and concluded this was the
fog of war, this was an accident.
BAMFORD: Well, the linguists didn't come to any conclusion. All they were
doing was translating this. So we probably -- I think days or weeks after
the event. The Liberty had no Hebrew linguists on it at the time.
The point is, after the reports were compiled, after everything was looked
at, both the director of NSA, the deputy director of NSA and the director
of the CIA all came to the same conclusion: It was a deliberate act, and
there should have been an investigation.
Richard Helms (ph), the director of the CIA, told me just less than a year
ago that this thing needed to be looked into. It was never looked into
because of the pressure put on the White House...
BLITZER: All right.
BAMFORD: ... and that it looked like deliberate to him.
BLITZER: I'm going to let you get the last word, Judge Cristol, but I'll
read what Richard Helms (ph) wrote in his book, "A Look Over My Shoulder."
He wrote this, he said, "It was no accident. I had no role in the board of
inquiry that followed or the CIA board's finding that there could be no
doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the
Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this
ship or who ordered the attack."
Judge Cristol, go ahead.
CRISTOL: Well, I would dispute Mr. Bamford's statement about his source.
Marvin Nawicky (ph) mentioned in his book who he said told him that the
tapes thought -- showed that the attack was intentional. Mr. Nawicky (ph)
denied that. He wrote a letter to the "Wall Street Journal," which was
published, in which he said -- Mr. Bamford said just the opposite of what I
told them.
He also authorized me to publish his letter to Mr. Bamford, which is in my
book and which is on the Web site. You can see it there under Nawicky (ph)
Papers, where he says, "Dear Jim," and he goes on to say, "Some people
think this was intentional. It was not. I totally disagree. It was a
tragic, gross error."
BLITZER: All right. Very briefly, go ahead.
BAMFORD: Well, Richard Helms (ph) knows more about this than anybody that
Judge Cristol happens to be talking about. And his comment was that it was
deliberate, and it needs to be investigated.
BLITZER: What was the motive -- if it was deliberate, what was the motivation?
BAMFORD: Well, that's the big question. Since we never had an investigator
ever go to Israel and ask a single question or look at a single document,
nobody knows.
The deputy director of NSA, Lou Tordella (ph), said, "I believe the attack
might have been ordered by some senior commander on the Sinai peninsula who
wrongly suspected thought the Liberty was monitoring his activities."
That's from the deputy director of the National Security Agency. You know,
I can't do any better than that. That's what they felt at NSA, and that's
what they believed.
BLITZER: Do you have a problem, Judge Cristol, with another formal
investigation to take place at this point?
CRISTOL: It is 36 years later. Many of the people who were involved are
deceased. Memories change over 36 years. Some of the people, for example,
who testified under oath five days after the event now have a different
memory than what they testified to under oath 36 years ago.
I agree with President Bush, his father, President Clinton, and five other
presidents that the matter was thoroughly investigated. That's what they
say in their letters. And there is no need for a further investigation.
And at this stage, I believe Secretary Rumsfeld said also some time last
year that now this belongs to historians, and that it's nothing further to
be considered by...
(CROSSTALK)
BAMFORD: These are the same people that want to keep it covered up.
BLITZER: And both of you are historians, so both of you will continue
investigations.
Jim Bamford, thanks for joining us.
Judge Cristol, thank you to you, as well.
BAMFORD: Thanks, Wolf.
CRISTOL: Thank you, Wolf. A pleasure to be here.
BLITZER: Thank you very | |  | | Alpha | | | | Alpha | | | | Pauletta Revere | | Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:39 am Post subject: |
| http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Frontlines/default.htm
Remembering
our fallen heroes:
Spotlight: June 8th, 1967
USS LIBERTY
by Laura Dawn Lewis
Memorial Day is a day of remembrance in the United States, the one day a year we set aside to honor all of the soldiers and others whom have given their lives in support of our country. The solemnity of the day is often lost on bar-b-ques and weekend chores; I recall in a poll done several years ago by one of the networks that only 53% of Americans realized why we celebrate Memorial Day, fifty-three percent? As a nation we never have been ardent students of history.Today Americans are high on a victory. We invaded Iraq and overthrew the government and we're feeling pretty good about ourselves. Our wars fit neatly into our limited attention spans, fulfilling an addiction for real, reality TV.
How commercialized our wars have become became painfully obvious to me while visiting my parents. I was shocked to hear them say, Come, let's go watch the war. Disgusted I commented that the invasion wasn't for entertainment purposes, but at times I wonder. The orchestration was a little too neat. TOP
On June 8th, 1967 the USS Liberty, an Intelligence ship in the Mediterranean was deliberately attacked to minimize information gathering of the illegal invasion by our closest ally of its neighbor. Thirty-four American sailors died and 172 were wounded. Fighter pilots of the attacking forces were instructed to "shoot out the lifeboats" and leave no survivors or witnesses. Against all odds, the crew hobbled out of danger and returned to a government that has henceforth tried to cover-up this event.This is the story of the brave sailors of the USS Liberty....and a memoriam of those whom died for their country that fateful day.
USS LIBERTY OFFICIAL WEB SITE
In Memory of our Servicemen Who Gave Their Lives on the USS Liberty
US Navy unless otherwise specifiedClick links for bio and photo when available
LCDR Philip McCutcheon Armstrong, Jr
LT James Cecil Pierce
LTStephen Spencer Toth
CT3
William Bernard Allenbaugh
SN Gary Ray Blanchard
CT2 Allen Merle Blue USNR-R
QM3 Francis Brown
CT2 Ronnie Jordon Campbell
CT2 Jerry Leroy Converse
CT2 Robert Burton Eisenberg
CT2 Jerry Lee Goss USNR
CT1 Curtis Alan Graves
CTSN Lawrence Paul Hayden
CT1 Warren Edward Hersey
CT3 Alan (NMN) Higgins
SN Carl Lewis Hoar
CT2 Richard Walter Keene, Jr
CTSN James Lee Lenau
CTC Raymond Eugene Linn
CT1 James Mahlon Lupton
Rather than focus on our current reality, this Memorial Day I'd like to take you back in time to the genesis of today's hostilities and a group of American sailors whom against the odds navigated their nearly destroyed ship out of International waters to the dismay of the attackers and to the embarrassment of our own Defense Department.
Why Robert McNamara chose to sacrifice these soldiers and why the cover-up continues is a mystery.
The Beginning
The story of the USS Liberty, an intelligence ship serving off the Sinai Peninsula in June of 1967 begins June 6th. This was the day the Israeli army defied international law and invaded the West Bank and Gaza strip, stripping the Palestinians of their land, water rights and ability to provide for their families. Off shore in international waters sat a listening post and intelligence gathering ship called the USS Liberty.
Records of this invasion needed to be quelled and stopped. Illegal operations with proof of atrocities cannot be dismissed or spun. For the Israeli military, the USS Liberty presented a problem. The US is an ally, yet the information this ship was gathering could be used against Israel.
It could prove their intent and would not allow them to use the security threat story for the invasion and occupation. The story would stand as long as proof to the contrary did not exist. The proof must be destroyed.
Orders were given to the Israeli Air Force and Navy to sink the USS Liberty. Of special note was the order to shoot out the lifeboats, a detail not known until the pilot transcripts were released in 1991.
Survivors would be witnesses and this was not acceptable. The Israeli military commenced deliberately attacking the ship of an ally, our ship in peacetime.
Had it been any other country, the US would have considered this attack a declaration of war. For years following the attack on the USS Liberty, the Israeli Military attempted to spin the story as an accident of mistaken identity, claiming they had mistaken the ship for a freighter.
In 1991, the transcripts from the pilots were released clearly showing the aviators first questioning and then incredulous to the fact they were attacking an ally before reconfirming and carrying out the orders. They saw the American flag on the USS Liberty. This was communicated several times before the pilots began firing on the ship and the orders stood. Sink the Liberty. TOP
The Cover-up
The US Military under McNamara's guidance, rather than rush aid to one of our own ships in distress and under attack, held back. The sailors were abandoned and on their own. Yet through shear luck and perseverance, the ship managed to hobble to a safe port with 172 wounded and 34 dead sailors, resembling Swiss cheese from the torpedo, napalm, missile and mortar hits.
Even when General Matityahu Peled of the Israeli army stated to Ha'aretz daily in 1972 that, "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." The charade continued.This public statement proved the attack of 1967 known as the Six Day War and the subsequent occupation, were of conquest not protection.
Still the US government continued to squash the USS Liberty incident and hush the members of its crew. For our government it was and is more important to protect the reputation of a foreign invading army in direct violation of International law and every safeguard of human rights, than to uphold the reputation and dignity of our own soldiers and sailors. Personally, I have a problem with that. TOP
The crew of the USS Liberty had the misfortune of being attacked by the only country to which US public opinion grants full immunity and to which US foreign policy and media turn a blind eye.
Had the unprovoked attack been made by Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia or even Russia at the time, the USS Liberty would have become a rallying cry and every American would know the story.
Had it been any other aggressor, the heroic and extraordinary efforts of Captain William Loren McGonagle, and his crew would have graced a dozen movies and countless books. Instead, for 36 years nearly every attempt has been made to squash it.
Conclusion
Since that fateful day in 1967, the survivors and the families of the slain sailors have wanted nothing more than recognition for the experience and an end to the imposed gag orders. Captain William Loren McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty during the attack.
The Congressional Medal of Honor is the highest award our country can bestow. To avoid embarrassing our attackers, Captain McGonagle's Medal of Honor was presented in a quiet ceremony in the Washington Navy Yard instead of in the White House by the President as is customary.
The legacy of the USS Liberty is one of heroism that is long over due. This Memorial Day, honor the men and their families. Take a moment to remember the crew of the USS Liberty. They've waited a long time for the people of the United States to remember and thank them. The best gift we can give the families from this point forward is to never forget them or the truth of their situation.
Now hear their story. Jim Ennes was an officer on the bridge when the attack started has graciously allowed Couples Company to republish an excerpt from his book, Assault on the Liberty: The True Story of Israel's attack on an American Intelligence Ship. On the following pages you'll find Chapter Six covering the attack. | | | | hateliars | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:24 am Post subject: Israeli Pilot Admits Attack was Deliberate |
| http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm
The Assault on the USS Liberty Still Covered Up After 26 Years
By James M. Ennes Jr.
June 1993, Page 19
Twenty-six years have passed since that clear day on June 8, 1967 when Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. The attack in international waters followed over nine hours of close surveillance. Israeli pilots circled the ship at low level 13 times on eight different occasions before attacking. Radio operators in Spain, Lebanon, Germany and aboard the ship itself all heard the pilots reporting to their headquarters that this was an American ship. They attacked anyway. And when the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime.
There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.
Israeli Pilot Speaks Up
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.
Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.
The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.
Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack, " he insists.
Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.
A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.
Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.
How Does Congress React to These Complaints?
Most members of Congress respond to inquiries about the Liberty with seemingly sympathetic promises to "investigate. " Weeks or months later they write again to report their "findings": "The Navy investigated in 1967 and found no evidence that the attack was deliberate," they say. "Israel apologized, calling the attack a tragic case of misidentification, and paid damages for loss of life, injuries and property damage. The matter is closed.
The fact is, however, that the Navy's "investigation" examined only the quality of the crew's training, the adequacy of communications and the performance of the crew under fire. The Navy was forbidden to examine Israeli culpability and Navy investigators refused to allow testimony showing that the attack was deliberate or that Israel's excuse was untrue.
The Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions.
Instead of determining whether the attack was deliberate, the Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions. No survivor was permitted to describe the close in machine-gun fire that continued for 40 minutes after Israel claims all firing stopped. No survivor was allowed to talk about the life rafts the Israeli torpedomen machine-gunned in the water. No survivor was permitted to challenge defects and fabrications in Israel's story. Even my eyewitness testimony as officer-of-the deck was withheld from the official record. No evidence of Israeli culpability was "found" because no such testimony was allowed. To survivors, this was not an investigation. It was a cover-up.
Congress Goes Through the Motions
Occasionally a member of Congress will seem to probe a bit deeper, as Ted Kennedy once did. In response to requests, Kennedy asked Liberty survivors and others for input,whichhis staff then "studied" for more than a year.
Kennedy asked no questions, conducted no interviews, and showed no curiosity about the many discrepancies in Israel's story. Then Kennedy reported his "findings" in a letter to survivors. Carefully avoiding the circumstances of the attack, Kennedy's letter deplored the "tragic circumstances and loss of life" and declared that the facts about the Liberty must be uncovered "to the maximum extent humanly possible. "
That letter, however, represented Kennedy's maximum effort. Appeals to Kennedy for some real help go unanswered.
The Guest Goes On
The best forum in the '90sfor this story and related stories of the Middle East may well be electronic mail, the complex of computer and electronic mail systems that now span the globe.
For instance, the USS Liberty and theMiddle East are hot topics in the "Prodigy interactive computer service" run by Sears and IBM. With over 2 million members, Prodigy's "Israel" forums guarantee some lively and often bitter debates.
Unfortunately, the playing field often seems uneven. The cover-up side heavily outnumbers its critics, and is allowed tactics rarely tolerated from others. Criticism of Israeli policies is seen as "attacks on the Jewish homeland. " Pro-Israel debaters charge that Israel's critics are "disciples of hate," and "pathological haters of Israel and all things Jewish. "
The language gets worse. Prodigy allows Israel's critics to be called "sodomists," and "derriere bussing antiSemites. " The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, which prints an update on progress toward a congressional investigation every year on the June anniversary of the tragedy, comes in for special vitriol. The magazine is described almost daily as I a hate rag." Yet Prodigy's censors often reject even mild and factual rebuttals of such charges as "insulting. "
Despite a near media blackout, and such invective directed at publications that defy it, Americans, do continue to support the USS Liberty and its survivors' association. Late last year the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 560 in Zimmerman, Minnesota, raised over $12,000 to create a rest stop and picnic area on donated land near a major highway as a memorial to the men who died on the Liberty. This makes the 29th public memorial to the USS Liberty.
The memorial area and an inscribed granite stone were appropriately dedicated in a ceremony attended by survivors, VFW members, Mayor Randy Hanson, and Liberty's heroic Congressional Medal of Honor-winning skipper, Captain William McGonagle, among others.
Inspired by community support, members of Post 560 are now telling the USS Liberty story to every VFW post in Minnesota. Member Stan Wuolle tells us that after they cover all of Minnesota, they will start on Wisconsin and the Dakotas.
In New York, meanwhile, Korean War veteran John Everts learned about the attack just last year and was similarly moved. Everts inspired two Korean vets groups in which he is active, "The Chosin Few" and "The Korean War Veterans" Kivlehan Chapter, to write more than 100 letters to Congress seeking the investigation that survivors mill are denied.
To date, no member of Congress has risked re-election chances by agreeing publicly to Evert's request. No one really expected that to happen. But efforts like these help members of Congress and the American public remember that Israel attacked the USS Liberty, deliberately and then lied about it. Sooner or later, Americans will insist that their government and their representatives in Congress find out why. | | | | Lekh teda | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:45 am Post subject: |
| A ten year old report....not what I call relevant. Now that the long awaited NSA tapes have been released, it looks like the conspiracy theorists will have to find a new tree to bark up.
Hateliars......you really don't give a rats ass about the 34 dead sailors...all you care about is finding something to use as ammo against Jews. It's not Israel that bugs you, it's Jews in general. I can't beleive the people on this board sit back and let you spew your venom. It is a poor reflection of the so called "moral" people who visit this board.
Here you have a person (Hateliars), who has called for the death of Jews, the expulsion of non-whites from the US and a plethora of other racist and just plain hateful dialouge....yet only a rare few have taken the time or effort to chastise him for his comments. And you people talk about Israel..yet you choose to ignore a vile bigot who is constantly spewing his hateful agenda.
Jews, Jews, Jews.....that's what the little fella is obsessed with. And as for the rest of you that choose to remain silent on the matter, you must have a heck of a time holding your heads up in public. It amazes me that when I made an admittadly "off-color" remark about Indians, multiple complaints were made. Yet you can call for the death of all Jews, or call Jews a variety of awful names, or call for the expulsion of blacks and no one except a rare few will speak out against it.
For those of you that think Jews or blacks or non-whites in general have cause you problems in life, get over it and take responsibility for your lives. It is YOU that is responsible for your lot in life, not any group or groups of people. If you are a bitter little troll that finds pleasure in vilifying and insulting others..then it is YOU that is the problem.
I take a lot of crap in this forum, and most of the time I stand alone because no one has the decency to stand against what they know is wrong. So here's the deal...no longer will I work at remaining civil when I am attacked with the hate and misery of the likes of HL or his talking monkey Turpitz. And if Anglo Thug or anyone else has a problem with that.....tough feces, they can boot me off if they want. So take your condencending bullshit talk and stick it where the sun usually does not shine. Of course this is not directed at the few that have had the balls to speak out against what we all know is wrong....but it is directed to the scum that floats to the top of this message board.
So please continue on with your lovely comments about how Israelis are racists, Jews are liars, blacks are inferior...or whatever else makes you feel better about your pathetic lives. Heck..if that's what makes you feel better, have a freaking ball. As far as me, I'll live my life in a way that I know is right....regardless of what a bunch of racist malcontents might think. | | | | Anglo Thug | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:32 pm Post subject: |
| | Quote: | | And if Anglo Thug or anyone else has a problem with that.....tough feces, they can boot me off if they want. |
Why would I boot you off? When has anyone been booted off? This is an uncensored forum. The only rules here are those set out by British law, a sketchy law at best. No incitement to violence, racial or otherwise, and no harassment. Other than these restraints free speech is allowed and welcomed, even when that speech is unpleasant or disagreeable. I've imposed my own addition to the rules which requests that people refrain from making sweeping generalisations against whole races or religions. I now regret this additional rule because it introduces a sea of grey that is pretty much impossible to navigate. I've settled on curbing the wilder excesses where possible. As I have repeated on many occasions, complaints embedded in postings are far less likely to be effective than mailing me direct. But I emphasise once again, this is an uncensored forum and as far as I am concerned 90% of the complaints received so far cannot be accepted on the basis that the rules have not been breached.
You mention that a particular poster has called for the death of Jews. If this is the case them please direct me to the posting or postings containing such material and I will, of course, remove them. Calling Jews liars is not against the law as I understand it but I would say this - it is plain that not all Jews are liars and most people, I would think, have enough intelligence to figure this out for themselves without prompting. Neither does calling for the expulsion of blacks from the US constitute a breach of British law, as I understand it. Again, I suspect there are very few people who would advocate such action and simply by neglecting to state opposition to such a policy does not cast every silent observer as a racist. I don't agree with the idea of blacks being thrown out of the UK. I have never agreed with such a policy and nor will I ever. There you have it, I have made my statement and I'm sure most other people here share such general views. But if you now insist that I follow your direction as to whom I must address and what the subject matter ought to be then I politely refuse to comply.
You are obviously free to exercise your right to free speech. If that speech is robust then so be it. Provided it does not constitute a breach of British law you are free to say whatever you want, which is the point of free speech. Whether what you have to say is moral or supportable by fact is an entirely different matter, of course. But others will judge such matters. In my role as forum administrator I am bound to ensure that material posted here satisfies the requirements of British law and that's where my responsibilities cease.
I have a suggestion. Why don't you take up the role of administrator for a month? I'm quite serious. I'm prepared to put in place a system whereby you can remove, edit or otherwise administer the postings here in accordance with the rules set down in the forum guidelines. Not in accordance with your own requirements, I emphasise. Personal opinion has nothing to do with the application of law, you understand. Do you accept the challenge? Will you spend a month reading and scanning and deliberating and answering the protests, criticisms and other such fallout that follows the decisions you choose to make? Can you afford the increased demands on your time as the issue of what gets posted here expands beyond your own requirements to encompass everyone elses?
I won't ask you to assume the additional technical duties, the third party complaints, the handling of security and site/ mail abuse issues. I won't ask you to deal with software updates, the latest patches and fixes, the forum enhancements. I'll still process the hate mail, the death threats, the hundreds of spam mails and viruses that make their way to my inbox each day. And naturally I won't demand that you assume responsibility for a one month portion of the four figure annual sum required to keep even this tiny enterprise afloat. I'll still take care of all these things. You just have to take up the censorship stick and point and click.
Sounds easy enough. Are you up for it? Do you accept the challenge?
Oh yes, there is one small additional requirement. This must not be a mainstream chat site when I get back and there must be at least a few users who are still prepared to post here. If I get back and find that you've managed to re-create AOL, I'll be very unimpressed.
Let me have your answer and I can get on and start putting the necessary tools in place. If this works out then I'll pass the task on to any other regular that wants it next month.
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Please sign the petition to prosecute War Criminal Tony Blair | | | | hateliars | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:15 pm Post subject: |
| The role of censor or gatekeeper is the role that Jews have always played. They try to suppress or control all thought other than what they approve of. That's why in every country they take total control of the media and the propaganda outlets. It was they who created the idea of political correctness and who murdered tens of millions of people in Russia for not following the party, i.e. the Jewish way of thinking.
Putting that petty little tyrant from Israel in charge of deciding what does or does not get posted means that only positive things about Israel will get posted. In other words, nothing will show up on this forum at all.
The muffin man, like most Jews, can't stand the truth. He can't stand reading negative things about Jews or about Israel. They are the "chosen people" after all and who are we to criticize the "special people?" Who are we to present another view of history and of events that don't glorify the "chosen ones?" Who are we to report on their nefarious doings that contradict their distorted view of themselves. Their narcissism and selfishness is enough to make anyone gag.
I sincerely hope that you don't turn this over to muffin man for a month. Anglo Thug, For if you do, when you get back the forum will be a shell of its former self. An echo chamber for the self-glorification of Jews and Israel. | | | | Anglo Thug | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:46 pm Post subject: |
| | hateliars wrote: | | The role of censor or gatekeeper is the role that Jews have always played. They try to suppress or control all thought other than what they approve of. That's why in every country they take total control of the media and the propaganda outlets. It was they who created the idea of political correctness and who murdered tens of millions of people in Russia for not following the party, i.e. the Jewish way of thinking. |
Like the Spanish Inquisition, you mean? I've said it before - for every bad Jew there is a bad Christian and a bad Muslim. Can you seriously say I'm off the track with this assumption? I didn't get a chance to argue out the genetics/ environment debate with you due to limits on my time right now, but I would have liked to because you are wrong on that too. I fully accept that there is an unhealthy link between the US and Israel but this isn't a cause to vilify all Jews. And that's what you do, repeatedly and you diminish your argument as a result. I also understand that the mere mention of the word Jew in relation to any form of criticism starts up the anti-Semite air raid sirens and that's pure bullshit. So it takes a degree of intelligence to argue a case within such tight confines. Whether those confines are justified is neither here nor there - the reality prevails nonetheless. So persuasion needs to be a sharp instrument rather than a sledgehammer.
| Quote: | Putting that petty little tyrant from Israel in charge of deciding what does or does not get posted means that only positive things about Israel will get posted. In other words, nothing will show up on this forum at all.
The muffin man, like most Jews, can't stand the truth. He can't stand reading negative things about Jews or about Israel. They are the "chosen people" after all and who are we to criticize the "special people?" Who are we to present another view of history and of events that don't glorify the "chosen ones?" Who are we to report on their nefarious doings that contradict their distorted view of themselves. Their narcissism and selfishness is enough to make anyone gag.
I sincerely hope that you don't turn this over to muffin man for a month. Anglo Thug, For if you do, when you get back the forum will be a shell of its former self. An echo chamber for the self-glorification of Jews and Israel. |
I doubt all of the above. When it comes to the crunch you'd better be on solid ground before you decide who can and can't say what. That's why the removal of posts is rare on this forum. If the law isn't broken then who the fuck am I to define the limits of people's free speech? I think any honest moderator will find himself confronted by the same stark reality. The practice of censorship is an admission of defeat because the practitioner has chosen to shut his protagonist up rather than present counter-argument. Such behaviour is transparent and only a fool with an agenda would seek to use censorship to promote his own ideas. Censorship is entirely counterproductive and I can't think of a single case where this isn't true in the long run. So I imagine that anyone taking up the modest task of administering this forum will be compelled to leave things as they are because, as stated, this is an uncensored forum. There's only one way to see if this theory holds water and that's to put it to the test. Once Lekh has had his stint you can be next. I have a theory that you will find it harder to post some of your material when placed in the position of moderating the efforts of others. Will you accept the challenge?
How about Cowboy? JD? Abbadean? Any of you. Whoever is honest would be able to do the job regardless of their personal opinions and I'll tell you - the forum wouldn't change as a result. It's a lot more difficult to press the delete key on another poster's work than some people might imagine.
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Please sign the petition to prosecute War Criminal Tony Blair | | | | hateliars | | Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:12 pm Post subject: |
| I believe that open and honest debate, the exposure of all ideas to comment and correction - produces the truth. Maybe not everyone will accept it, but that's not the point. The essense of freedom is to not be told by the "authorities" what one may think or know. So if you want me to monitor the forum sometime, I will be glad to do so. I trust people to be adult enough to handle what's posted and if they can't, that's their problem.
And anytime you want to debate the genetics versus environment issue, I'll be glad to do so. The evidence is overwhelming that genetics is the determining factor not only in intelligence but in many personality traits as well. But this basic idea irritates those on the left because they have adopted the Marxist point of view that there are no differences between the races and that it is "racist" to even discuss it. But Marx was a fraud whose theories have failed every test of reality. Marxism epitomizes the problem of "believing" in things rather than testing them scientifically or in the "real world." With those on the left, this belief system is akin to religion which is why disagreeing with it is akin to heresy. But I have no religion - not even a secular one.
It is particularly surprising that people still believe in Marx given that they accept using the findings of genetics to produce better foods or to eliminate diseases or even to producing children artificially. Yet to talk about the effect of genes on intelligence gets one labeled a racist. There is no doubt - no doubt - that races differ in terms of "average" intelligence just as races differ in other characteristics as well. Genetics is the cap that no amount of environmental intervention can trump. Marx was a moron. | | | | | ©2002-2009 WarWithoutEnd.co.uk |
